Saturday, November 17, 2007

Turkey: forget the EU!

While Turkey is saying that they continue sufficiently fulfilling the Copenhagen political criteria, they think that they are honest and sincerely while in the meantime they are lying like no one's business. That Turkey and their ridiculous bourgeois press (hello, we live in 2007, not 1957) are criticizing everything what is going one in Europe (why should you criticize all the time future co-members even before being a member) makes it more interesting. It looks like that they think: 'as long as we make noise and scream at them, in the end they will listen". For sure they will listen and react accordingly.
The hot potato in the EU mouth is 'freedom of expression'. And that is what no country should give up. So why still negotiating with a country where these rights are interpreted on a way such as North Korea: On November 9, a judicial investigation was initiated against a 17 year-old girl who, while doodling in a school textbook, drew a clown’s hat on a picture of Ataturk (Radikal, November 15).
What makes this so hypocritical is that the same people who are in favor of these kind of investigations are the same people who put on their blogs all kind of cartoon's of Angela Merkel, Bush, Barroso, Sarkozy, the same people who are burning foreign flags, the same people who demonstrate against cartoons in Sweden and Denmark, the same people who are proud to heck in one day 5000 Swedish web sites, the same people who are angered when they hear that the new Minister of Justice in Turkey has a British passport too (and had to give that up) but when a Dutch minister with a Turkish passport in the Netherlands, these same people became angered when some MP's in the Netherlands criticize her for not giving up her Turkish citizenship (which she also didn't). We call this 'Double Standards'.

At the same time I hear Turkish friends telling me that Turkey can do things all on their own. But deep in their hearts they know that they are not telling the truth with their pride as justification for their behavior. We live in a knowledge society, and therefore dependent on each other. And one of the things I learned, after 5 1/2 year working in Turkey, is: they don't know how to implement new technologies, concepts, invention's etc.

That the Turkish government introduced a new set of regulations for ISP's is a step closer to a police state rather than being a member of the EU. It's Turkey's right to do what they want to do, but don't cry like a baby if someone in the EU commission say on a soft tone 'please reform'. The time that the EU set double standards for Turkey must be over. Turkey has to adapt the Copenhagen criteria, not the EU has to adapt to Turkish norms and values.

What in particular makes me outrages in the new set of regulations for Turkish ISP's is that for example all websites which oppose the 'official Turkish ideology' (what that might be) but that hard-line Turkish nationalist websites, including those that call for the murder of liberal intellectuals such as the novelist Orhan Pamuk, have not been outlawed.
So, if Turkey wants to turn into a police state, soit! But the EU has to take a firm stance now.
Here you can read the new set of regulations for Turkish ISP's.


Anonymous said...

Right in the target.
My compliments.

Anonymous said...

I've been preaching this for a long time. I am glad someone else thinks so as well . . .

And not joining the EU does not make one less European . . .

But both Turkey, and Europe have to grow up some more . . .

Anonymous said...

Here's what I wrote:

"The complexities of the responsibilites of the 'haves,' along with the status symbol-itis and wanna be-isms of the 'have nots,' will require all parties to be faithful to the matrimonial arrangement of convenience, amid signs of 'cheating' by the not so easily satisfied, and the hungry for affairs of attraction and distraction. Thereby, a breakup is imminent and foreseen by historical experts.

There are no real advantages for Turkey's admission from the Europeans' perspective, including reasons even Turks admit privately but not publicly, of non-equality and uneven standards, as well as the presence of harboring hundreds of years of animosity and fear. From Turkey's point of view, why is such an invitation even worthy of the pride and prejudice that Turks continue to employ, practice and preach, in the interest of a subliminal role of belonging.

Is Turkey accepting of a secondary role in a waning power struggle, or would Turkey be respected more by the powers to be, if it had its own agenda of being a power broker, and possibly a strategic superpower in that part of the world yearning for such a leader.

I guess Turkey should reevaluate whether it is fine with being a follower, or expose its true intentions of being a leader."

But unfortunately, we still lack true leadership skills in the arena of international politics . . .

Right on Hans!

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

Metin, nice comment!
Yes, the EU has to grown up, as it knows this very well. Therefor many Europeans think that the enlargement is going to fast.
Turkey is never invited but applied, like Israel and Morroc (both rejected). But Turkey wants all kind of special treatments because of 'sensitive' issues. If Turkey is the only country which have these. I am still behind that small LDP party in Turkey btw..)
Turkey will have a lot too loose if negotations will be stalled. Less foreign investments since it will be a less steady country. And a lot of EU fundings will be froozen. The big point here isL there are no EU experts in Turkey. A friend of my is ass. Prof at marmara university, specialized in EU. And she admits that there is absolute no awareness about the benefits the EU can bring to Turkey. In the end, she said, Turkey will turn its face to Arab countries which are less in favor of Turkey than Europe..((

Gunther said...

As a frequent business visitor of Turkey (I am German) I get interested in the country. And used to read every day the Turkish daily. And some blogs too. Regarding the blogs in Turkey, I find them immature and shows a lack of insights what is going on in Europe. Still insulting Germany, homeland for more than 3.000.000 Turks. And many are doing fine. But some people in Turkey want to highlight only the negative things.
Hans, I read your blog for the last couple of months. Especially since you brought co bloggers in from Athens, yerevan and Turks living abroad. I really appreciate the way how you are bring in some good points here. The EU is established to avoid any form of nationalism which caused two world wars and many deaths. That Turkey is so easy with their ultra nationalists and so insensitive with minority groups, and turn itself into a semi police state (instead of an islamitic state) worries me. The new set of regulations for ISP's will face strong criticism in the EU. And yes, I am not a fan of a country who are making their citizens less important than some kind of vague ideology.
An excellent article here and I hope to read more from you in TDN.

Anonymous said...

Turkey needs to align itself with Israel and the U.S., and not with the Arabs.

Even the 'Islamist' government realizes this . . .

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

Metin, that will never happen in the way you see this. As the whole muslem world sees the combination of Israel and the USA as the problems of almost everything, how do you think Turkey (as secr. gen. of the OIC) will fit in that alliance. It will inflame more hate against Turks in the Middle East. You already could see how the Saoudi King threated with dedain the Turks..((

Tara said...

Turkey pretend to be a strategic and most reliable partner of the USA in the region. With the ongoing debate about art 301, their cult and sect behavior around Ataturk, and now their control over Internet, they are moving towards the 'old communist times'. Is Turkey really aware that they are accountable for the mess in the Balkans? Is Turkey aware that they are still in a mess with Greece, Cyprus, Armenia and other neighbors about many disputes. And know Turkey wants to be THE mediator between Israel and Palestine. With each step they made at the moment they will loose their last credibility not only in the region but in Europe, the USA and many key players in the world as well.

Isil said...

This packet of 'reforms' are a shamefull act of interference in people's private lifes. I am sure that some kemalists here are more than happy what's going. Since they lost all the attention, they want to control through state institutions. A Shamefull Act!

Dimitris said...

Not big brother, but Ataturk are watching you!

Anonymous said...

Hans . . .

Who said Turkey was part of the 'Muslim' world???

It's a label that others have placed on Turkey to pacify themselves that Islam (unlike the the perceived by the West) the religion can be peaceful and secular versus Islam the way of culture and life (as 'practiced' by Turkey and the Turks) . . .

Oh by the way . . . who cares what the Arabs think (if you mean Arabs of the Middle East) . . . they are fast becoming obsolete . . . just like the EU.

Israel is there to stay and be a powerbroker by the U.S. and U.S. allied Arab (leaders) . . . who love $$$ too much.

As for Dimitris' comment . . . lol . . . you are absolutely right . . . time to take off the Ataturk glasses when looking from the inside out. Really, it's time for a new 'visionary' prescription . . .

Turks still have a lot of growing up and catching up to do . . .

Anonymous said...


You seem to have gotten the point.

The truth shall reveal itself for all to see except for the ones who disguise it by their revelations of blindness.

mirdifderya said...

Hans and Metin, I have different perspective of view from here Dubai, They do Look at the Turkey with a respective way why?; Secular Muslim Country, Every single Arab I have spoken to Locals here which includes; Top Lawyers and ect. They do have great respect and most importing; they believe Ataturk's vision. What he has done in a short time for Turkey.

How much Arabs hates US or Israel, they can't do without them, Why then 20% of US economy relay on Saudi Government, it is not beneficial, same with us.

Tara what Sh.t are you talking about? Their mess in Greece, Balkans, Armenia and such and such??? First of all get yourself a history lesson before start writing over here. The mess Armenia, Greece or Balkans countries are in now? Most of sh.t accountable ones in this region done by: Brit's and France, not Turks. If Cyprus has a problem right now because of Brit's, everybody knows Queens husband is Greek. Or if you are talking about Genocide for Armenians, Those are all ferry stories done by Americans and Armenian over Taxation in US. Well Ottomans killed over million?: where, why so many Armenians living right now in the region they suppose to be all killed? Or how about the genocide done by Romanians and Bulgarians over Muslims in the Balkans in early 1920s. Is anybody looking at this NO... Because Turkey isn't CRISTHIAN. Lets face it and be honest to yourself.

Dear Gunther; Turkey and Turkish people brain washed with Turkish nationalism, they have to be, look at our neighbors come on, be fare... Who wants us around?; EU doesn't, we won't deal with Arabs, we know it, we have stubbed from the back early 1915st famous Lawrence of Arabia:)) The thing is; why EU is so cautious over Turkey; 1) Too big, 2) Muslim 3)over 70 million 4) troubled neighborhood. I won't touch it. We get juicy with the idea to join before last couple of years, but not now, With all these rules and ect, turned us off. Did they give half of the trouble to Bulgaria or Romania NO as much as they to Turkey NO.

Hans said...

ufff....Dear Derya, everybody his/her opinion...but did Tara mentioned one thing about Armenian genocide? And I think Gunther made a point by saying that many Turkish German's made it in Germany while the Turkish press is highligting only what went wrong..))
Btw, the article is about what Turkey is doing, shamefull.
Of course many Arabs want to deal with Turkey for business...and compare 'their autoritarian regimes with that of Turkey'...and ys, than Turkey is enlightened, but not according EU standards..))

Anonymous said...

It seems like years of hostility and ridiculousness will take years to overcome. Everyone needs to be patient, as we get away from the ancient rituals of bringing up crap from our past, good , bad, ugly, or indifferent.

When will we admit to ourselves what everyone else around us already realizes . . . that we all have skeletons in our closet . . . and its time for an extreme makeover . . . or donate to goodwill . . .

Dimitris said...

Metin, looks like you understands me. Btw, I have a lot of Turkish friends. And Greek-Turco friends.
Hans his point about the new regulations should be discus here, no need for that automatic 'self-defense' mechanisme Derya shows.
Dear Derya, I worked all over the Middle East and in Israel as well. There is no 'special' interest or hate or love for Turkish people. Please calm down. The reaction you show is maybe understandable regarding the nasty press outlets you have (I learned to read some Turkish) but no need to act as the whole world is against Turks. The point here is that your government makes mistakes, time after time. And censorship on ISP's makes your country a foolish while pretending to be a leader in the Muslem world.

Anonymous said...

Dimitris: I am all for open dialogue . . . we need to realize the bonds that bind us with so many common denominators rather than the rhetoric that polarize us. We only have each other to help ourselves with, especially in that region of the world. I do respect the Greeks, and Greece. And I am sure the same could be said of many Greeks toward Turks and Turkey.

Dimitris said...

Metin, you are a Turk in the USA as I understand of today (great blog you have).
Yes, the fear is still out there, the fear for each other, and to look in each other eyes.
Last year I attended a seminar (org. by the USA cult. section) in Athens. Journalist from Turkey, Greece and both parts of Cyprus. There was a lot of understanding, but the Turkish journalist failed to give simple answers, afraid of art 301 and 156. I met some smart people of Radikal, and Turkish daily. The sad thing of this seminar was that Turkish journalist never can write freely while the Greeks can.
About Turkish writers, people like Elif, Pamuk and Mustafa Aykol, next to some other columnist of Turkish daily, are followed with great interest. They are the new voice of Turkey, and with them Greeks can deal, and for sure the EU as well. But when I read on 'the Istanbulian' that Turkey has a historical role to play in the Balkans and the Middle East, blaming that everyting went wrong because of French and British, my stomach turns soar. Turkey don't take any responsability for what they are doing and did.
This behaviour is not acceptable since these people implicit are saying:'we are the indegous' people of this region. Pardon me...are Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Asyrians not humans?
Greeks in Athens are sometimes fanatic against Turkish people, but the Turkish community in Greece has more rights than the Greek community in Istanbul, which is 2.000, and will disappear completely soon, together with the Armenians.
With this new Internet laws soon the Turkish nationalist will start a campaign against foreign 'influences' and will root out the last critical souls in Turkey. Turkey iss playing a dangerous game. When left out of the EU, they will be lost, completely on their own since the USA already shows signs of discomfort how Turkey behave.

Anonymous said...

btw, you've inspired my latest post on my blog about Greek-Turkish pipeline (of cooperation).

Anonymous said...

Dimitris . . . I coudn't have said it better!!!

In fact, some people try to smear some (like Mustafa Akyol) as representative(s) of the 'new' Islamism movement in Turkey. And their point is???

Whatever 'they' want to call it, I like the change of attitudes . . . and hopefully, pretty soon, thanks to people like Hans and others, the 'underground' will grow in its definition . . .

Let's just hang in there, and not fall victim to those who try to separate and segregate us . . .

Tara said...

As an Armenian in Turkey (I am an Armenian not a Turk) I am disappointed with your response.
Did I mention the Armenian Genocide? I am only responding on Hans his posting: censorship.
As you know, we Armenians have to keep our mouth shut. And if we talk peace, we must hide ourselves since you either 'submit your self to a discriminatory Turkish way of thinking, or you have to fight for your rights'. That's real life for us. You as an expat in Dubai don't know what's going on. I know that they taught you to be a good Turk, but what about other humans on this earth who are not Turks? They are inferior to your Turco-Arayn/Arian race, right?
Why did you never accomplish one significant contribution to the world besides destroying and denying other cultures?

Dimitris said...

Thanks Metin, btw, its great to hear that the Turks won their game in Norway..))
As long as there are exchange students with Turkey there most be an improving relations atmosphere between You and Me. But as long as some Turks, bragging about their education - barely speak/write English - we have to be aware about populist voices which keep Turkey out of the international area. It demands, even requires to be a permanent member of the security council of the UN, while not willing to solve their conflicts.
A country like Turkey will not be accepted easily as a neutral mediator. In fact, Greece has wonderful and warm relations with Israel, only we don't brag about it.

sincerae said...

"Pride goeth before the fall." The Turks who are trying to lie their way into the EU with their nationalistic vision and repressive policies should remember this quote.

Also beggars can't be choosers. Turkey has no valuable resources like oil. So it cannot do like Iran or even Iraq during Saddam's time and say, "Hey, we have oil! We don't foreigners and other undesirables here!"

Remember the tourist season. If that goes and Turkey continues with lies, intimidation, threats, corruption, and all the other ugly behavior it is displaying towards foreigners and their own people, its' tourism industry and EU membership can be kissed good-bye.

EU membership is already a lost cause at this point, I believe. Turkey does not deserve EU membership at this point unless it stops this nonsense.

Why is this implosion going on! It doesn't make sense like a lot of things there. The enemy within Turkey deserves nothing. And the enemy within are these nationalist/racists. I guess the next ridiculous thing on the radar will be Turanism. I would not be surprised if that topic isn't being brought up nowadays. There are some good, honest Turkish people who hate to see this mess happening, but what can they do? So sad...

Hans said...

dimitris, interesting how you see things.
sincerea, i don't have access to your blog, whats exactly the link?

Sincerae said...


Someone picked on me and I flew into a fury and deleted both of my blogs:) Stupid of me. I am such a baby, but I was going through so much at the time.

I have got a little tired of blogging anyway. I did not feel I was saying anything new, and I am having to rebuild things here, ie. career, etc. There is a lot of uncertainty now.

I have, however, started a new blog, but it only has one entry. Still right now my mind is in limbo. My health is not at its' best, but I am trying to work still. Really what I want to do is try and write a book. I can, but I need better discipline. People have been encouraging me to do so since I was 24 including a novelist who lives in my town.

Once and if I get my new blog flowing, I would like for it to be a mixture of the secular and the religious. If I develop it, you might not want it as a link here. So until then... :)

mirdifderya said...

Hans, please don't write ufff pufff or so ever, can't we give our view here as well. If Tara has an opinion I have different perspective view what she wrote' Is Turkey really aware that they are accountable for the mess in the Balkans? Is Turkey aware that they are still in a mess with Greece, Cyprus, Armenia and other neighbors about many disputes' that's what I understood that moment and I gave my opinion, you know How much I can be flexible about whole views about Armenia, EU or Cyprus, I have lots of friends from those countries below. We have no problems.

Dimitris: You know how hot blooded Turkish, Greek, Cypriot woman can be:)) I am very calm believe me, I have just blown away by Tara's Posting: blaming Turks for everything. That's what I felt that moment (btw maybe couple of glass wine, made me so:)). What ever situation we are in right now of course all Turkish Government's fault, they are useless, still being elected, well what can I say if the 57%Turkish people are electing them I have nothing, to say isn't it. Even the governments before were the same.:(

Tara: Did I say you should put your mouth shut, NO you shouldn't at all, what for many years Turkish government did to minority groups who lived in Turkey, unacceptable. What I have understood from your writing: you were blaming Turkey for all the mess in Greece, Cyprus Armenia.. I am Half Turkish Cypriot and my great mother was Greek Cypriot. As I mention very well in my first Posting, we did brain washed. I am not nationalist by idiotically. But again in your posting still writing about World destroying/denying(I believe that's again about Genocide can't be anything else) other cultures.. Don't tell me Turks are the only nation destroying, denying. I believe you have personal problems with Turks. Yes, Turkish people who lives within Turkey can be very ignorant and can't see what's going on outside the world.

Lastly Turkey will never join EU. Because we are not Europeans, we are not Asians or Arabs. So get on with it and live your life with it. Look at Scandinavian countries, or Switzerland. They are surviving perfectly without it. Why we are so ambitious about it, because all the money going to come, that much will go away as well. How Turkey became expensive within recent years because trying to join EU standards. Ask EU members citizens are they any happy with EU.. Don't think so.

Yes ufff Hans I talk too much tonight again.

Hans said...

Dear Derya, if you are hot blooded, I can be that as well, since I am made in Italy.
I only replied since I didn't see any attack on Turkish people here, she only said things how the Turkish governments made a mess..))
He, sent an email. And we will be in Dubai from 21-26 december. A whiskey drinking Hans gives a lot of fun, but be aware about my irony dear..))

Anonymous said...


I agree with you completely that being European is not dependent on the EU.

As I've always said before, the EU will soon fail.

But some of us are too old to see it in person!

Dimitris said...

Salut Derya,
I am a Greek but can be hot blooded as well. Don't forget that, but in discussions on internet we must think before we write. I saw so many hopeless discussions on internet. About Greek women, they are like Metin: sexists..)) (after seeing Metin his blog)
Good that Turkey won over Norway. So we can beat you again, or will the Dutch doing this..))
You complain about your government so do we. And regarding Cyprus, be aware that many Greeks are fed up with the games Papadopoulos is playing. But what the outcome will be, the Turkish, British and Greek military has to withdraw. And 40.000 Turkish on such a small part of the island is only imitating.

mirdifderya said...

Dimitris I can't agree you more:)

Anonymous said...


I appreciate the compliment. But one post does not a blog make.

I welcome your comments over there.


Dimitris said...

Salut Derya, so at least we agree on many issues. Ever been to Athens? I see more and more Turkish people coming over here. Hans can confirm that (we know each other through a common friend, Thomas, who is married to Seda from Turkey. Through here I learned a lot about Turkey).
Metin, don't get me wrong, but you sound totally different than yesterday evening. Sometimes I don't know if you aare joking or being serious as someone here yesterday posted. And what do you mean by 'the EU will fail'. I totally disagree with you. We have a lot of comments about the EU, mainly related to the Euro. When introduced the prices went up with almosst 50% but salaries stayed the same. I think that we Greeks are the less enthousiastic about the EURO, but content with the EU.Lot of fundings. And At least they watch our governments..)) All the spendings with the OGames 2004, left us with a large debth.

Tufan said...

Metin, what's wrong with the EU?
It is a growing integration proces. Was the united states made in 25 years, no. And still we have here all kind of integration conflicts.

Anonymous said...

America was made up primarily of a British influence, with a few Spanish and French sprinkled here and there.

Europe is a conglomeration of racist, and nationalistic collection of many who finally realized they can't go at it alone. And for the purposes of a united 'front' they decided temporarily to abandon their personal agendas in lieu of erosion.

But sooner or later it will crack. The Germans, the British, and the French will all want to run the show, while allowing all the others to think they really matter.

Europe should stick to being Europe. And not try to emulate the United States. Tow different animals.

Tufan said...

Never experienced racism in Europe. Yes some chauvinism in France and Germany, but - especially - in the Netherlands, Sweden and Greece I made life long friends. In Amsterdam, joining people in a bar means: they immediately accept you as one of them.
The EU is in an integration proces, and it is an economical blog, which even beat the hell out of Microsoft.

Tufan said...

Sincerae, you still sounds extremely bitter about Turkey. I don't feel offended, but is it not time to moven on?

Anonymous said...


In Europe, discrimination is against ethnicities, not an individual. Have you heard of ethnic cleansing?

But in some of the EU's (real) members like Germany, the discrimination might be due to the Turks' own doing too.

Turkey also practices discrimination, and no regard to civil liberties. So I guess it has something in common with Europe?

Geert Jan Keutelaer said...

Metin, as I have some Turkish friends, you are Talking Turkey, blaming everyone and everything.
Who are the real members of the EU, please enlighten me Sir.
Now I understand why the Turkish people down here in Holland are not eager that Turkey one day join the EU. They get again controlled by Talk Turkey jokers.
Sleep well.

Anonymous said...


Thanks for noticing!

At least I am an equal opportunity blamer . . .


Everyone knows the British, the Germans, and the French are the 'real' powerbrokers. Do you really think the world pays attention to what the Italians, or the Greeks, (or the 'Dutch') have to say? . . .

Just kidding of course . . . That is why 'weaker' Europeans join things that make them think they belong. And Turkey is falling into the same trap . . .