Monday, August 20, 2007

Teach your Children well...

Sunday, August the 19th, late at night:

I had an interesting conversation with a German acquaintance of mine. He is in love with the most beautiful girl in the world, according to him, and she is the most lovely person he has ever met. And she is Turkish.
Lots of comments at home in Germany. From his family, his friends, and schoolmates. But he follows his intuition and his feelings and is still planning to marry her.
I congratulated him since I am married with a Turkish woman as well.

Suddenly he asked me how Life in Turkey would be for him, as a German. I told him as a Dutch: 'Es ist bis zu Ihnen', up to you! This is German language btw, but I am Dutch..

Suddenly, he threw a question on the table, which was so striking:
'Hans, you are from the Netherlands, you can help me...'
My friend continued: 'When I was in xxxx, I asked my love, "why is the military so powerful in Turkey?", and she replied to me: "Because the Greeks wants to invade us". "We have to be strong against the imperialists".'

Take a breath...

Yes, I know that down here in Turkey, children at the age of 6 are taught about the 'internal and external enemies'...Only, is this the way how you raise up your kids?


Hüseyin said...

not actually,at least in the big cities this "state of mind" thing is coming to an end i guess. yes, we mostly do not like greek people but this does not mean we always talk/think about greek enemies. if the "state of mind" thing happened to be true "Yabanci Damat" or so called "Greek Groom" sitcom would be on air at most two weeks but it lasted two or three years.
and what about "State of Mind Greek/Armenian Kids" ???

Sean Jeating said...

you'd find in any state quite a few people with such "state of mind".

As with most problems, to a great deal it is a matter of education.

And, of course: As long as everybody immediately refers to THE OTHERS, no one will BEGIN trying to change his / her state of mind.

Hans said...

Dear Huseyin:
Are there any Greek/Armanian people Turkey?
After all the pogroms?
Where are you talking about?
Minorities don't have any rights.
Yes, we can make a daily news about" how Turks threat foreigners with cake and thea...are you dreaming..))

Hans said...

Ever saw 7 years old kids, brainwashed, frightenend...
reciting; we are the army, we are the Children of Ataturk...
Hitler Jugend maybe?

archisugar said...

A simple answer to your question:

Sean Jeating said...

There is an inflation in comparing everything with Nazi-Germany. This is not helpful. Besides, not those children are to be blamed, but their parents, their teacher.

The problem not have been seriously faced yet in Turkey seems to be:
Mustafa Kemal got somehow fascinated by the so-called West, when these states [and their people (due to education)] were all strong nationalistic and ... authoritorian states. - Sorry, bad English. -

Many Turkish politicians seem to have missed the changes that happened in the past 90 years.

Mentally still living in the "Golden Twenties", they do still think "their" people to be "their" subjects.
And what are people treated as subjects and used to bow their head whenever getting near to a superior (uniform) doing?
They are looking for people they themselves can treat as a subject (f.e. women, other ethnics, religions, agnostics etc.), or they are looking for (inferior) enemies.
The Germans call such behaviour "cyclist's mentality": Bow up, kick down.

And once three, four generations having been treated as a subject that has to bow its (sic!!) head in front of any official, it is not easy to suddenly act as sovereign citizen.

Ah, must stop! :) Sorry for the long comment.

The Peace of the Night.

jake said...

Be careful brother, This sounds like a controversial topic...I'd hate to see Blogger shut down in Turkey as well.

Anonymous said...

Hans %46 of the voters voted for AKP in the last election some weeks ago. If you really knew something about what's going on in Turkey, if you really knew what the hell is AKP about, you'd also know that those brainwashed fuckers you're talking about are a shrinking minority (read Deniz Baykal and his herd)
And your friend has found himself a total dumbfuck to marry.

Wake up.

Hans said...

Dear Esra,
You are out of touch with Turkey..))
Sorry to say this.
Do you want your children to get raised and educated in Turkey or Switzerland?

Hüseyin said...

you are mixing things up, you should know the difference between "was state of mind" and "is state of mind" so there is nothing to do with how many greek or armenian are left in Turkey,we should focus on now not 30 or 50 years ago. as i said in my first comment big cities don't deal with greek but this is supposed to decrease in more conservative cities of Anadolu.
I will be glad to learn which rights minorities does not have. They don't have any rights, huh? It is nothing but just provocative. I bet 90 percent of greeks' and armenians'in Turkey have better wellfare than i do.
and still the question what about the state of mind of greek/armenian kids in greece and armenia. You should look the issue twofolded but if you only look at One side of issue,that's Turkiye, you do just speculation.
As sean said "you'd find in any state quite a few people with such "state of mind"

yasemin said...

Hans, I agree with most of the things huseyin has written, though I cannot say 'we don't like Greeks'. As a Turkish person living abroad I have had many Greek friends, and we have always gotten along well. I agree with sean, too, in that "you'd find in any state quite a few people with such "state of mind". I find this post quite provocative actually.

archisugar said...

Hans, I lived in Turkey for 28 years. I had all my education in Turkey (including master degree), so I know how the education is there. I am in Switzerland for 4 years only. I would prefer my children be educated in Turkey. We will see what time brings... It is not that easy to choose sometimes... especially when you have a Swiss husband...Greetings.

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

Dear Huysein, Yasemin,

I am not talking about you, I am talking about common practice.

Also, I am the witness of this behavior for 5 years now.

Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians etc have to be silent, if they they ever are heard...

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

Esra, I didn't ask for your degree.
I am talking about comon sense...))
Since when are Turkish universities topping?

archisugar said...

I am trying to explain that I am NOT "out of touch with Turkey" as you mentioned before. You asked if we are educated in that way in Turkey and my answer is "no". I (tried to explain that) spent 19 years in Turkish schools and noone told me that Greeks or Armenians or anyone is "bad". My family either. I hope I could explain this time.

So, summary:
* your question: is this the way how you raise up your kids?
* my answer: NO....

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

i changed the tittle, not the content.
visit some blogs, and you will see how many Turks perceive foreigners...
huseyn: minorites (as long as they are considered as a 'minority') are not able to buy, maintain, or build their own churches.
Kurds are still prosecuted when they use their own language.
2 weeks ago a BBC team was making a documentary about Turkey. Suddenly a scene in a place nearby Trabzon, a museum: the Turkish woman who was interviewed, told that she only want democracy in Turkey. Suddenly her son, age 7, 8, 9?? said: 'and when they come here again, I will cut their throats!
Are we blind? How many people are killed because of their religion or ideas lately?

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

There is a nationalistic tendency going around in Turkey...((
That's a fact.
I have a friend who is a teacher in Turkey, h/s only admit that children are teached about the 'internal and external enemies'...
Sad. I post this not to attack one person, only to bring growing nationalism in Turkey under the spotlight.

müzi said...

Dear Hans,

i think the problem here is looking at the problems from one side. I am sorry to observe this in your comments. Unfortunately, nationalism is coming back everywhere in the world. Do not forget the victories of right wing parties in Europe, do not forget American nationalism. When you talk about the nationalist tendencies in Turkey, you have to consider the foreign nationalisms as well. once nationalism starts to reincarnate, this means that it will reencanate in somewhere else as well. This is a historical fact. Talking about the education, I thought Turks were nationalist, until I met Greeks and Cypriot Greeks abroad. And most of the Turks do not want the Greek minority to hold the right for religious education (Heybeliada Ruhban Okulu) when there is not even one mosque in Athens. What I am trying to say is, nationalism is everywhere, not only in Turkey.

And they feed from each other. Turkish nationalism and Greek nationalism feed each other. If one of them would fade away, there would be no need to another. But if one of them continues, the other will continue as well.

Metin said...

Hans: Tell you friend not to do it!!!! She will be the mom of their kids, and add to the anti-Greek ignorance. Hope she's a good cook. Moussakka anyone?

Hans A.H.C. de Wit said...

Dear Muzi,
I agree completely with you. But Turkish nationalism is so grounded, that I am sometimes really scared.
Yes, there are some nationalist idiots in Greece and on Cyprus as well. If you read all mu articles and comments here, you will see that Nationalism is Evil in my eyes..(((

Metin, I think 'they already' read my comments..))

Anonymous said...

Muzi: There are differing interpretations of nationalism when comparing apples to oranges. To take pride in the products manufactured in one's homeland is not the same brand of 'nationalism' versus the outright militant and/or fundamentalism (and I am not talking about Islam here) elements of nationalism of taking pure joy in denouncing another's nationality or ethnicity or sexual or religious orientation at the expense of the superiority (rather a blatant inferiority) of one's own egoistic tendencies of having to identify with their own.

This is where I differ between the nationalistic approaches of an American versus a Turk.

Osman said...

Hi to All,

First of all, we don’t see all the Greek as an enemy, the reason we have a strong military based on the fact that Western World does not want a strong Turkish Government in Anatolia, well, let me rephrase this “western world doesn’t want Turkey (Turks) in Anatolia” I came to this concept with a small historical research based on the events and approach that west been taking against Turkey. What am I talking about would be the exact question you are asking to me right now and that is great, thus explains. Western World been searching for the co-existence, starting point of civilization and most of they’re research pointing about 5000 B.C. and as we know from the hieroglyphs from Catakhoyuk (Sumer’s) in Angora (City Ankara in Modern Turkey) region are considered the first written language and alphabet (in some form). This doesn’t stop with this and also in Anatolia man Christian civilization have lived and passed. Byzantine’s and Great Armenian Empire are some examples. For west this is unbearable, because, they want to relate they’re self to the beginning of civilization with this they will make them selves as the creator of civilization and how big role the Christian world now played a big role into this. Even when we look in to the western history books for some reason after 1950’s they started to except Turk’s entering Anatolia in 1071 which also mentioned in Ottoman history doesn’t really shows the truth. The reason Ottoman History mentions this as 1071 is based on Ottoman History only focusing on Islamic history other than Turkish history. This was correct due to Islamic history however at that time there were many Turkish groups lived in Anatolia and a huge example for this is a group called “Karamanogullari” whom were Christian Turks. As you all can re-call Greece had a president with a last name Karamanlis. Moving on…..

When it comes to Turkey today, we are faced with many threats due to huge terror from PKK and this was ASALA in 1970’s and in 1980’s. If you look at the supporters of these terror groups you will see a huge hand from the West, Greece, Armenia and Armenian minorities in various western countries, Kurds, Iraq, Syria, and in the past Iran (no longer). What is more normal for a country to realize the threat and take all necessary cautions to protect its citizens and the core values it based upon?

For your friend, I would suggest to not judge people whom think’s Greeks as an enemy, I know this is wrong however, she should perhaps be little more mature and more open minded. I went to Holland and Germany for a trip I took some years ago. Let me tell you about my experiences, I was going to Wagenigen to Berlin with a high speed train called “ICE” (if I am wrong correct me on the name of this high speed train) When we entered the German border, German border police approached me and asked me for my passport, I handed my Turkish passport and he was rude and asked me if I had any guns or weapons on me. I replied “no” than he asked me where was my belongings (suit case) I pointed where they were and he wore glows and searched every little item in my bags down to my underwear and no one else in the whole compartment.

Another example for you, I was in Spain in Sevilla, I was visiting my girlfriend at the time, we took the public transportation for some reason which I am not quite comfortable with. The bus was full and I was standing up close the exit, when the bus approach to the bus stop I saw this elderly lady whom were not so close to the exit trying to exit the bus, as a human being I moved to open room for her to exit the bus comfortably, she was so pleased with my action and told me thanks in Spanish and more.. I only understand it few and told her that I wasn’t Spanish and didn’t understand her. She asked me where I was from and I said “Turkish” as soon as I said this she started to wave her hands back in forth like get away from me. It was so clear that this person really hated me for where I was from and even would for see what I have done for her to make her life easier for her. The point to these stories are to show you how we are treated in the eyes of the ones who are strongly judge us and try to tell us about human rights and equality every chance they get. I leave these for you to judge.

mirdifderya said...

Yeap I do agree Osman, I did leaved in 8 different countries and time-to-time I did get the same reaction from some Europeans. Thanks god never had chance to travel to Europe, never tented to. I do find European people who lives in Europe very conservative and very closed minded, and most of them never been outside the Europe, let them be:)

According to your Kahramanogullari history, I must be definitely coming from family that was Christian-Turk because I’m from the south of Turkey and even worse half Turkish Cypriot, definitely related to Karamanlis:)